Curse

Randomway Ftw · May 07, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Refresh my memory, before 6v6 was implement, what was the most pressing HA issue?

Gimmick builds.

lyra_song · May 07, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Gimmick builds.

Would you be willing to say that the mechanics of the various playstyles of HA lends itself to fostering gimmick builds (pre 6v6), just as the current mechanics are fostering even more gimmick builds?

Randomway Ftw · May 07, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Would you be willing to say that the mechanics of the various playstyles of HA lends itself to fostering gimmick builds (pre 6v6), just as the current mechanics are fostering even more gimmick builds?

Gimmick builds are present in all forms PvP not just HA, almost all objectives can be gimmicked.

Gimmicks will always exist, all that is required to deal with them is skill balance, and minor changes. Not massive game mode destroying kill count like changes.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · May 07, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Even balanced is a gimmick atm with killcount because you have to run an extraordinarily offensive build, almost always with a snarer, if you want to win. Now, with certain NF elites (I don't think I need to name them) this means you're going to end up with X number of fire eles, one water snare, 3 monks, and some warriors. REALLY intrepid teams might bring a.... MESMER! When balanced is a gimmick, you know that something is really RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up.

Snype · May 07, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Oh i love melodrama. Wheres the popcorn? Seriously folks....comparing Anet to Stalin...

All this self-deprecation and "oh pity me, im a HAer, and Anet is mean to me" bullshit needs to go.

Mistakes were made, mistakes will continue to be made.

The only way the relationship between Anet and its players will thrive is if its a give and take.

Anet is not your slave. Anet is not subject to your every whim. If anyone is the dictator, its US. We, the players. Anet bows to us. They coddle the players and take the time to listen to even the stupidest ideas. -.-

Why are you posting on this thread? You have NO IDEA the problems of HA, you don't play HA (at least I hope you don't with the ignorant comments you've made), and you obviously do not grasp the play styles that HA has. I don't go posting in a petition to change Hard Mode, please don't go posting in a thread you have no idea about.

To Gaile: If you took a poll (in-game) of EVERY casual HA player, I would highly doubt that a good amount (10-20%) would want kill count to stay.

lyra_song · May 07, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Personally i found the later incarnations of IWAY fairly "balanced", although im sure a lot of people will disagree with me.

I do agree that 3 way kill count sucks. Killcount, if anything should always be 1 on 1.

However, i do agree with the direction Anet is going with HA, with adding new gameplay modes.

The old King of The Hill altar cap format was flawed in that there was really only 1 objective. Theres only 1 way to win. The objective wasnt even to CAPTURE the altar. It was to be the last one in control of the altar when the timer ran out.

I do understand the fun in the frenetic, fast paced, last minute capture/interrupt of a capture. It is very exciting.

However...It doesn't lend itself to so called "high end pvp" when its really just mayhem. Oh and the EoE bombs....oh those were so much fun.

My favorite King-of-the-hill formats are the ones where the capture point changes. Capture the hill, then it switches to another one somewhere else on the map. Another style is "Double domination" from UT2K3-4 where theres two spots and your team must occupy both spots for a certain amount of time. Another style would feature 2 active out of 5 points to capture, and strategy would be either split to capture 2 or swarm to capture 1. And so on and so forth.

Theres so many variations to king-of-the-hill. Guild Wars got the crap "Lets make a pile of corpses in the middle where wells, wards, AOE and traps own the ghostly" version.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · May 07, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

The objective wasnt even to CAPTURE the altar. It was to be the last one in control of the altar when the timer ran out.

How are you supposed to be the last one in control without capturing the altar?

Quote:

However...It doesn't lend itself to so called "high end pvp" when its really just mayhem.

Not mayhem. Murderball and killcount is mayhem, altar capping took coordination and skill, even when running lame ass gimmick builds.

Quote:

Guild Wars got the crap "Lets make a pile of corpses in the middle where wells, wards, AOE and traps own the ghostly" version.

I think you mean Guild Wars got the crap lets make a pile of corpses where AOE and spikes have to be run to produce these piles, A.K.A. killcount. Altars were not mayhem or random kill-everything matches at all.

lyra_song · May 08, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

I think you mean Guild Wars got the crap lets make a pile of corpses where AOE and spikes have to be run to produce these piles, A.K.A. killcount. Altars were not mayhem or random kill-everything matches at all.

I agree on killcount. Disagree on altar matches. Since we fundamentally disagree on that issue, theres nothing left to discuss.

Alleji · May 08, 2007, 05:38 AM // 05:38

I just love how every thread about HA eventually grows into a flamefest...

Hmm, what can we do to help?

I know, let's talk about rank discrimination!
LOLOLOLO r3 NUB STFU&L2P

ayame ftw · May 08, 2007, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Even balanced is a gimmick atm with killcount because you have to run an extraordinarily offensive build, almost always with a snarer, if you want to win. Now, with certain NF elites (I don't think I need to name them) this means you're going to end up with X number of fire eles, one water snare, 3 monks, and some warriors. REALLY intrepid teams might bring a.... MESMER! When balanced is a gimmick, you know that something is really RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up.

QFT i agree with u, this is the cliosed u can get to balanced in the curent HA format if u want to survive killcounts..

everything is a gimmick after a wile.. Don’t understand how people keep on trying to prove the difference between whats a gimmick and whats not...

Kyp Jade · May 08, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Even balanced is a gimmick atm with killcount because you have to run an extraordinarily offensive build.

I have to point out that gimmick builds usually are a build that
1) Everyone and thier little sister run

2) Do a LOT better on some map objectives, but are total crap on the others
(I love losing to a team in UW, only to meet them in unholy temples/sacred temples and roll them 3-0 cause they dont know wtf to do on a relic run, or the case with gimmicks, are unable to keep up with a balanced runner team)

3) More often than not speced only to a couple of the HoH win conditions, and utility skills are added around the team to help get to HoH, but this is usually a waste (see rt spikes on relic runs yea its funny trying to watch a guy with only pious haste get a relic more than 5 ft from the base)

4) I forgot, its not important

---------------
Balanced teams on the other hand
1) Lots of people try to run, and fail miserably (free fame ftw)

2) Are prepared to deal with all map objectives everywhere (though some more than others admitedly, while kill count does offer difficulty when we get ganked, its easy enough to run past some spike team that you always see (Thank god for inventing rt spikes, so easy to snare and run past them)

3) Oh, this is important, balanced teams usually arent around to farm UW fame, I'll admit to only playing B-spikes until I quit GW some time ago, and more often than not, if we didnt skip a relic run, it was back to UW for us, gg that sucks. Then again, if we skipped the relic runs, we usually took halls once or twice. (the only motivation really for running Bspike was to take halls)

I love playing relic run on balanced teams, usually my groups get to courtyard before we face a really good gimmick or balanced team, then its hard. (It's easy to tell when someone running a gimmick knows how to play it, then your life is going to suck for the next 10 mins or so)

4) Ah I forgot again, maybe there is no 4

--------------------------
It's probably not too aparant, but the difference between a gimmick team and a balanced team is skill balance, both player skill and skillbar skills. Most balanced teams are forced to take at least 1 AoE character to be able to rack up enough kills on broken tower from farming the noob team. But if you dont see the difference, here is one gaping huge difference.

Gimmick builds require a few skills to work JUST so the rest of the build can be broken and abused
For Example
1) Rt spike ---> no vital weapons up = GG
2) Spiritway --> no EW = no energy = GG
3) SFway -----> no fire attunment = funny GG
4) Fearmeway -> Warrior hate of any kind = gg

Balanced builds will 95% of the time have SOME way of dealing with those teams, between disruption, enchantment removal, water eles, anything. The good gimmick builds spec for contigencies, however these are few and far between and usually arent enough.

Gimmick builds just run with what they got, and hope for the best. usually they have enough dmg/pressure to not even care about it, and kill neway (this is what players call unbalanced, an example would be Type 1 Magic the Gathering, you either play blue control decks with Force of wills, or you play a turn 1 deck and hope they dont counter your spell, with some variations)

/start rant
Skill balances please
Do what you feel like with map objectives
Do something about skips please.

Death_From_Above · May 08, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Theres so many variations to king-of-the-hill. Guild Wars got the crap "Lets make a pile of corpses in the middle where wells, wards, AOE and traps own the ghostly" version.

You may think these varriations are good but the majority think they suck. Hum i wonder who anet should go with, the casual pvper who belongs to a minority or the majority of hard core pvpers. Its like me asking for guildwars to remove some pvers farming place and replace it with a longue, yes i know which is what im highlighting. It is meer utter stupidity.

The question i will now give you which so many times you have given us. So why bother with HA if you didnt like its original fundimental concepts? When you clearly know what your on about because you obviously are ignorant in relation to HA. Come back to me, thank you come again.

Whisper Evenstar · May 08, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We're busy.

We have a few designers who are looking at HA as they are able. But there are other assignments that they must also fulfill. Like me, they have more than a single obligation to the company.

Keep in mind we listen, but keep in mind that the player base will not make the final design decisions.

Thank you Gaile for coming right out and stating these things. You guys do great work. You really do. You are constantly delivering enhancements/improvements WHILE actively working on the next release (GWEN/GW2). As someone who manages technology projects for a living, I know how complicated it can be to juggle new/changing requirements and maintain a high level of quality in your releases.

The guru community needs to be reminded that the ANet dev team is not at their beck and call and are not their personal servants. We need to instead be thankful that you make such an effort to stay in touch with our ideas/feedback and incorporate that into your future plans. Providing constructive criticism with solid reasoning to back it up instead of whining and complaining is the best way to make our voice heard.

Keep up the good work ANet!

Ec]-[oMaN · May 08, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I find it funny how all these people still believe taking away kill count will make HA any more enjoyable than it currently is. If you think this way, you truly have no idea wtf you're taking about nor truly realize how borked the game is in relation to the mechanics and the amount of troubled skills. How about you put efforts into discussing different gameplay features/mechanics that might be better suited? Even then it's a waste of time, like it will happen anyways. Beating dead horses here.

Death_From_Above · May 08, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whisper Evenstar

The guru community needs to be reminded that the ANet dev team is not at their beck and call and are not their personal servants. We need to instead be thankful that you make such an effort to stay in touch with our ideas/feedback and incorporate that into your future plans.
Keep up the good work guys!

No one said they were are personal servants. All we did was ask for something which clearly we are right to ask for being the majority want it and it is what is best for HA. Give honour to whom honour is due, anet dont deserve a thanks because they havent honestly done anything worthy of it. Back in the days when anet was at its prime making sure HA owned it was then i would say good job anet. But their proformance up on now has really been cringe worthy hence why we have no reason to say thanks because if i recall they have yet to do anything for us. Its like saying i do a test and get an F when i am ment to get an A. Then everyones like well done well done, it defeats the whole purpose.

Also, infact i donno where you have been recently but anet have not been making an effort to stay intouch with our ideas / feedback and incorporate it into their furture plans. Thats why the last time i heard any information from anet on the HA section of the forums was erm like how long ago. Also if this statement where true, why was it after 9 months we finaly got HA removed but oh look we keep kill count. It doesnt seem that they have been incorperating what we have said into their plans because other wise kill count would have been gone by now, infact even with 6v6. Stuff which izzy has said also leads me to believe this is not true because he claims their is no sound voice from the pvp community (as stated in the radio interview) basically implying, yo HA community were not going to listern to you because we think your ideas are not the way to go, therefore we will rather do what we want. I think such statements speak for themselve. I guess the saying actions speak louder than words is flawed because obviously the words are doing the speaking here.

Kyp Jade · May 08, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

I posted this in the killcount poll, but it actually belongs in here as this is more of a 'suggestive' sort of post. (even tho its not in sardelac)

Anyway
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0152771&page=2

Yea sure early killcount objective will let SFway and AoE way be predominant in the first 3 maps, u will hardly see good ones past that. A-net clearly likes the new objective, they just need to implement it better. And make some incentive to not wait until 2 minutes remaining mark.

Btw to those that think Anet is NOT looking closely at HA, they are, but do you have any idea how crappy it is to edit code. Writting code isnt so bad, editing code you have to know the whole thing inside and out, and u have to know chaning this thing wont screw up that thing.

Its gets difficult when your team size exceeds 10.

Not to mention testing, I feel sorry every time they have to test skill balances, so many hours spent on tha tjust to have the community flame them.

In anycase, they are busy developing the technologies they will need for GW2, when they get to the pvp aspect of GW2 development, expect to see a lot of updates in only a few month inteverals, I suspect it wont be long now since they are done with the hard mode update, and the ATS is under way.

lyra_song · May 08, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death_From_Above

You may think these varriations are good but the majority think they suck. Hum i wonder who anet should go with, the casual pvper who belongs to a minority or the majority of hard core pvpers. Its like me asking for guildwars to remove some pvers farming place and replace it with a longue, yes i know which is what im highlighting. It is meer utter stupidity.

The question i will now give you which so many times you have given us. So why bother with HA if you didnt like its original fundimental concepts? When you clearly know what your on about because you obviously are ignorant in relation to HA. Come back to me, thank you come again.

Well heres the flaw in your argument. The majority is not always right.
I don't care if 99% of people agree on something. Some ideas are just bad ideas.

You ever heard of lemmings?

That isnt to say, I agree with keeping Kill count. I think the 3 way kill count is stupid and a flawed design. Just like the single altar cap.

0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Guild Wars caters to many player types in PvP and PvE. Casual and Hardcore. Anet will make the decision based on the median.

Also.

I love how everyone keeps telling me im ignorant. Its hilarious, and puts a smile on my face, especially when people keep putting words in my mouth which i never said.

Im a very open minded person, especially with people who can hold an argument. Calling me names is pointless and contributes nothing.

Strawmen. Red herrings. Ad hominem. Keep it up.

Skuld · May 08, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whisper Evenstar

Thank you Gaile for coming right out and stating these things. You guys do great work. You really do. You are constantly delivering enhancements/improvements

These words in a HA thread? Are you high?

Death_From_Above · May 08, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Well heres the flaw in your argument. The majority is not always right.
I don't care if 99% of people agree on something. Some ideas are just bad ideas.

Wow are you on drugs or something because you should really hear yourself. If the majority are not always right why is it we asked for 8v8 gave our reasons for wanting it back. In the end we got it, shows we were correct that 6v6 did not work and 8v8 was needed. Also we have experianced HA with these mechanics and thats what guarantees us some comfort it will work. Please take your head out of a hole and apply your brain once in a while. Something which 99 percent of people agree on will most likely result in it being a good idea, just because you may not think its not it doesnt mean it shouldnt be implimented because thats what would keep the 99 percent of players happy.This is what anets doing, they think their ideas are superior to the actual players who play HA and look at the mess they made it into. Galie grey claims kill counts a success, come on your joking me does she even play HA. And this is what the problem is, their is not a good meditator within Anet dealing with the pvp side of things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

That isnt to say, I agree with keeping Kill count. I think the 3 way kill count is stupid and a flawed design. Just like the single altar cap.

Stupid statement number 2. Please explain to me how alter cap was flawed im dying to hear it, and dont come up with those lame excusess which have been explained 1000 times like oh their were holding builds. I would like to raise a point, if holding builds were such a problem why is it i and many other players when playing HA always stood a chance of making it to halls and holding. The opportunity to was never thrown out of the window. So dont bring up that argument if your thinking about it because it only shows your lack of skill to remove holding teams from the alter. Frankly if you cant do that you dont deserve to win if your going to cry about it. Halls isnt mean to be easy. And dont mention about interupt wars because you know what i will say to that and i think randomways already explored and explained the domain for everyone many times. So anyways, surprise me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Guild Wars caters to many player types in PvP and PvE. Casual and Hardcore. Anet will make the decision based on the median.

Ye im aware of that, but please explain how this still gives anet the right to destroy a fully functional enjoyable pvp arena? I dont go to pve saying oh we should have new skills which mean you can do 200000 damage in one hit. Or oh we should make it that all armour in the game is free to purchase. Im sure if i did and anet implimented these changes you would be crying like a baby. But equally i can ask for such things because as you said, gw caters for pvp and pve correct. That statement of yours has no substance, casual pvpers should decide the outcome of HA. Its like saying children should be allowed to vote. Fact is casual HAers dont use HA much so what ever changes it wont effect them much, hard core HAers however will be effected dramtically and that can result in playing the game or not playing the game. Having a guild and not having a guild and so on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I love how everyone keeps telling me im ignorant. Its hilarious, and puts a smile on my face, especially when people keep putting words in my mouth which i never said.

Well were telling you the truth. I guess the fact your constantly being bombarded with the word clearly shows you and it where made for each other so all ill say is, Yes keep on smiling. People dont put words in your mouth btw, they use inferance in some cases to gather what your saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Im a very open minded person, especially with people who can hold an argument. Calling me names is pointless and contributes nothing.

Were not calling you names. Oh good heavens we would never do such a thing. We are meerly stating that before you try argue that you should educate yourself on the matter first and put yourself in our shoes. No one minds about people being open minded. The problem comes when that open mindedness starts to cloud your judgement so that things which clearly are, to you are opposite. This is where the conflict begins.

God of Killing · May 12, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

HA was never without complaints, but I seem to recall those complaints focusing around three things. The first being requests for balance, some of these were justified, some where just whining. The second being new maps, lets face it, when all you do is Tombs, those maps can get boring rather quickly. The third was omg rank discrimination, and this one was just bogus. I'm sorry to anyone who feels otherwise, but guess what, some magic elf didn't show up and grant me whatever rank I wanted, I had to grind my ass off to get it. It took me longer to get from r0-3 than it did to get from r3-6, but guess what, I never came on fan sites and complained about it. I'll admit it, I was bad at Tombs and having to grind like crazy taught me a lot.
So now, back on topic, please find me any thread from the HA community that ever requested 6v6 before it was implemented (I'll even let you count any from after the first double fame weekend), or any thread asking for kill count and relic runs in HoH and changing HoH to an alliance battle with the great beauty of only ONE path anywhere.
The HA community never asked for these changes, yet they came. Then, finally there was great hope, Anet announced they would be doing a SERIES of tests on HA to try and restore its glory. Test one added kill count, relics in HoH and allinace battles in HoH. That did not go well at all. Oh, but wait, this TEST never was undone. Then, without undoing the first test, they decided to also test 8v8 in HA. Gee, if only there was some kind of scientific rule about only testing one variable at a time.
Then they just decided that was that, left the changes and were done with HA. Anyone else get the strange feeling two tests don't add up to a series? Sorry if we are complaining and ranting, but a large portion of our community has quit playing HA or the game all together. At the same time, no one else is coming in. I have not played through every map to get to HoH (with the exception of the latest double fame weekend) in over 4 months. And now we finally get a response from Anet (who has not posted in the HA threads in months) and all we get is that guess what, it wasn't perfect before, won't be fixed soon, have fun. Wow, I can just see all the people who left rushing back overnight! YAY, HA is saved!